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Hey everyone, still shopping one of Harper, Betts it Machado. I don’t have specific needs, really just looking to shed a little salary and pick up decent value. I’d consider stud for stud or a collection of mid level talent.
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I’m ok with the arb coupon plan as proposed with the amendment suggested by Chicks that if not all dollar are allocated that the coupons are reduced proportionally. Thanks.
The Keymasters on
December 14, 2017 4:30 PM
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Of course, as ABS also points out, that may just lead to more turnover rather than its intended purpose, so such a thought has been tabled for the time being. The beauty of the auction format is that any player who is cut can be reacquired in the draft--for a price. So, the penalties or benefits of arbitration and related coupons are relative. The hope is simply to provide those teams who compete in the current season yet come up short with some kind of reward, however small, for their efforts.
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The hope is only that it makes owners think twice about checking out after making such a trade. I really would like to make finishing dead last an awful result to be avoided at all costs. I think that would make the action at the bottom of the standings as exciting as that at the top. Not anything like a permanent tattoo, which has apparently become a thing in some fantasy football circles--that's just plain crazy. But something like an extra +$1 salary for every player on the last place team.
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Welcome, Shadynasty Team To Be Named Later. Great to have you! Yes, we are discussion of implementing an Arb coupon system as a means of increasing season-long engagement for all teams, by giving everyone something to compete for, even if only small increments. To ABS' (another new owner) point, it is not strong enough to prevent owners from making a trade that spurs rebuilding in a lost season, nor should it be.
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The Shadynasty's trade block has been updated!
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Hey all, I just took over The Shadynasty (soon to be renamed) and will soon fire off a couple trade offers. I've been trying to catch up on the message board - it seems like the main topic of discussion is arb coupons right now?
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disadvantage with this system.
Octane Twisted on
December 14, 2017 10:42 AM
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try. I don't think it will have an effect on the 'dumping' teams (I know it wouldn't stop me from dumping if I am out of it) but it may incentive teams to be more active once they are no longer in the running for a money spot. The problem arises (and I've seen it a lot in Ottoneu) is that there will be a certain amount of turnover every year no matter what you do and those owners that quit mid-year, and stop checking their teams will put the future owners of their teams at an even bigger
Octane Twisted on
December 14, 2017 10:42 AM
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Yes, I read through the entire message thread before I joined the league. Torpedos- I think the idea that you have- an effort to keep league members engaged throughout the year is a good one. I'm all in favor of keeping teams active for as long as possible. One advantage of a points league (as opposed to the 5*5 system here) is that dead teams have no effect on the final standings. I'm not sure that they system proposed is the right one or that it will work but I'd be willing to give it a
Octane Twisted on
December 14, 2017 10:39 AM
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On that note, we already have one new owner for our 3 that disappeared. Welcome, ABS! Please feel free to catch up on the discussion and share any thoughts you might care to contribute. We have a great core group here, but are working on a plan to increase the competitive challenge and season-long engagement for all in hopes of finding a solid dozen who want to stick together for the long haul. Great to have you!
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Good point, Chicks. The reason we have not had full Arb participation has been because of the constant turnover. We could insert a clause that adjusts the amounts downward accordingly if we have less than 100% Arb participation. I do promise to be more diligent in addressing absentee owners in a timely manner in hopes of maintaining full engagement and participation.
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Until we can demonstrate full participation in arbitration, I would like to see lower coupon amounts. Only 3 teams had more than $20 allocated to them this year. I suggest starting at $15 for 4th. That'll likely be a 50-60% discount on arbitration which is still pretty valuable. We can always raise the amounts in future years.
Mr. McGibblets on
December 14, 2017 8:51 AM
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ABS's trade block has been updated!
Octane Twisted on
December 14, 2017 8:23 AM
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Great questions. My thought is that the coupons are not tradable and do not carryover. If they are maxed out, then any excess disappears. Basically, the team finishing fourth earns the right to have little to no arbitration raises. As for a league vote, my hope is that we can reach a consensus on some form of this plan that everyone is willing to try. I really don't want to shove anything down anyone's throat, especially by a narrow "majority rules" vote, but I want desperately to try
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Torpedoes, two questions for you:
The Keymasters on
December 13, 2017 9:46 PM
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1.) The league membership is currently at 9. How many votes will it take to approve this measure? Five?
The Keymasters on
December 13, 2017 9:46 PM
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2.) If one wins the $20 coupon, yet only $15 is allocated to their team in arbitration, what happens to the remaining $5? Is it tradable? Can it be banked for the next year? Is it lost..etc? Thanks.
The Keymasters on
December 13, 2017 9:46 PM
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Please take some time to digest this and feel free to share any thoughts. I have removed the three owners who are MIA and made their teams available in the Ottoneu marketplace. Let’s make this THE Ottoneu league for challenging, engaging competition and build a solid group of twelve owners committed to long-term fantasy fun.
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The bottom line is that this should increase leaguewide engagement and give everyone reason to enjoy the thrill of the chase and something to play for, even in a “lost season.” Owners are still free to manage their team as they see fit. In fact, we should no longer have need for any kind of veto system (or arguments), because “bad” trades naturally police themselves by nature of their impact on the standings, both in the short-term and the long-term.
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The system actually benefits everyone, if you take the time to think through its full ramifications. Arbitration inflation is reduced by up to 33% leaguewide ($100 of $300 possible arb dollars can be negated). The system also indirectly benefits any team that decides to dump, as other owners realize significant value must be exchanged so dumping teams can still be reasonably competitive.
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Please note that I have modified it numerous times based on the feedback of the group. My original concept included a significant penalty for finishing last, which I have completely removed. I believe that finishing dead last should suck, and it is something every competitor should strive to avoid. My hope is that this proposal still accomplishes that to some degree, though the actual “penalty” is significantly muted.
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Thank you for your patience and consideration. Here is my proposal for the $100 Old School Hardball Incentivized Competition Coupon System: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sr-LFO2IZfMPpiGDREismt_Orp-MHDe_B7pZZB550u8/edit?usp=sharing
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It appears we have three owners that are not participating. Can we move ahead and boot them. Get some new owners that will check in and keep up.
Las Piranhas on
December 12, 2017 8:13 PM
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Chicks Dig My Long Ball's trade block has been updated!
Mr. McGibblets on
December 12, 2017 5:52 PM
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And the league owners don’t get a say.
Carver High on
December 8, 2017 11:00 PM
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Why do I get the feeling that this proposal is not for us to vote on, but rather it is for the powers that be of ottoneu.
Carver High on
December 8, 2017 10:29 PM
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Please put your personal history aside for a moment and consider this from a leaguewide perspective. Shouldn’t a superior fantasy sports competitor be able to finish at least middle of the pack during a “building” phase more often than not? All I am asking is to try this out and see if it has a positive impact on rewarding the teams who compete well, but fall short of the top. If it doesn’t work, I will gladly let someone else take the leadership reins. I will submit a proposal next week
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If you feel inclined to brag about how clever you are because you made some “great” trade, but you could not avoid finishing last in the process, you are only lying to yourself. That takes no skill. If this is a game of skill, which is all I am attempting to accomplish, is it really asking too much to expect teams to keep competing as they build for the future? Teams can still make all the future-based trades they want. It will just behoove them to also keep one eye on the present.
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Unfortunately, it seems that my viewpoint has been twisted around as this discussion has progressed. Please understand that my position is this: Every competitor should be free to manage his team as he sees fit. If it were up to me, there would be no veto system. However, every competitor is also expected to COMPETE. Every season. All season. It’s as simple as that. We are ALL looking to the future in Ottoneu. Those who can do well WHILE building for the future should be rewarded for that.
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I myself have been accused of "dumping" when I traded both Donaldson and Seager. This trade netted me players that are now assisting me with competing in the forthcoming season while both of those players are borderline cuts. I was also able to flip one of the players I acquired into Harper. You're disguising your disgust by complaining that these managers are 'giving up' when your real concern is that the teams in contention have gotten better and made your attempt to win more difficu
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A Dynasty League by definition brings more than a single season into play when conisdering any trade. If this isn’t something your comfortable with, I suggest sticking to single season fantasy leagues.
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…if you thought you could win the league AND keep an undervalued Judge, would you do it? Of course you would! In the end, he likely figured the trade would help lock up a title, and it almost worked. Apart from that one trade, I thought our league was well played with nice competitive balance, and have no real complaints. That said, I am not opposed to the arbitration “coupon” approach if it discourages an extreme tanking strategy and helps to drive engagement throughout the year.
All Proofs on
December 6, 2017 11:51 AM
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I would tend to agree that veto systems do not work. Day-to-day engagement is not easy to sustain, and as a result, even egregious trades seem to slip through the cracks. In fact, in three years of playing in multiple ottoneu leagues, I have never seen a vetoed trade. That said, the Judge trade was pretty awful, and I voted against it. If I had to guess...the reason Chicks had a tough decision is that he was weighing whether he would be able to hang on and win the title with Judge...
All Proofs on
December 6, 2017 11:49 AM
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Czech Mate's trade block has been updated!
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Chicks Dig My Long Ball's trade block has been updated!
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Veto systems do not work, period. They invite subjective bias and require a leaguewide level of attention and engagement that is difficult to attain. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and every owner should have the freedom to manage his team as he sees fit. However, this is a COMPETITION, which requires you to COMPETE. To argue that the only way you can finish first is by throwing up your hands and finishing last is a pretty revealing clue that you are not very good at this game.
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I suggest you spend more time encouraging the importance for all owners to vote(their preference). That would be way more productive and helpful.
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:44 PM
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Everyone has different opinions and different views of players. I have attempted to veto many trades by voting veto. I've also approved trades where others voted veto. You disagreed(veto)with the Judge trade. Chicks and myself were fine with the trade. We made the trade. I'll bet Chicks would love to have Judge back on his roster for this upcoming season. The trade was approved(not vetoed) in the league. Your trade vote is your voice.
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:42 PM
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I think we should start focusing on getting the new owners, concentrating on the things within a league's power to fix, and move forward for an exciting season. Any of your dream proposals you have should go to whoever the powers that currently run Ottoneu. See if they like your ideas. Who knows, maybe they will. Then, Ottoneu can define the changes and rules, and owners can decide if they want that format or not.
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:34 PM
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I go into every season with the plan to finish first place. At a point in the season, I do what's best for my team to remain competitive in the league for the years to come. I don't really care if your opinion agrees or disagrees with what I choose to do. You can speak your opinion by vetoing the trade. The solution to making Ottoneu better is to reduce the number of votes needed to veto a trade(in my opinion). I think we have a very good group of owners in this league.
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:29 PM
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As for the turnover, you will have that in every league. Will have even more in this $100 money league. Will rarely have an owner commit in a public league for many years. For some, it's a way to get a quick return on some money(although that mindset rarely works out and they leave). I drafted Stanton, Harper, Goldy, Bumgarner and spent big money hoping it would work out. It didn't, so to remain competitive in the future, I made something out of my assets(or tried to).
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:24 PM
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I agree with everything McCheese has said. Obviously, there is a difference of opinion. Everyone has their own opinion. Torpedoes seems to only look one way and not consider others opinions can be valid as well. I think you should take your new proposal to Ottoneu instead of this message board. Ottoneu rules are defined and everyone has the ability to decide if the format is for them or not. The old commish you speak of decided he didn't like this format and went another direction.
Las Piranhas on
December 5, 2017 8:19 PM
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My 2 cents. Agree with others in that I'm fine with the league as is. I like having the ability to build for the future if I think it gives me a better chance at competing in the longer term. That said, I'll wait to see Torpedoes' proposal before opining on the coupons. I'm open minded to the idea if the specifics make sense to me.
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Just for the record, a few years ago we implemented a similar structure in my non-Ottoneu home league in which the bad blood generated by dump trades that arbitrarily impacted the pennant race threatened to tear apart lifelong friendships. The change has been an overwhelming success, with increased engagement up and down the standings and a new winner every season. I have been searching for a suitable way to do the same in Ottoneu, which is why I was thrilled to find this.
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Great, glad to hear that. Thank you. I understand that life happens and this is a game, but I think if there is no response after being given fair warning, it is time for us to move on.
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Please don't worry about finding new owners. I will cut the abandoned teams loose in the next few days if we get no response from them to this discussion. I have no doubt we will be able to find replacements--especially once we make this the BEST Ottoneu league in existence! I just wanted to give the owners who bailed notice that we are bringing positive change, putting the "compete" into Old School Hardball Ottoneu competition.
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I do agree with Robots that our first priority should be to try and get new owners in if the others are finished.
Carver High on
December 5, 2017 9:21 AM
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I guess I jumped the gun a little. I will wait to see the full proposal and exactly how it will work before I comment further. Torpedoes it is obvious that you and I have different perspectives, so I will just let it be.
Carver High on
December 5, 2017 9:19 AM
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I do think the coupons should be tied to place finish, not IP/GP limits. This is because you could legitimately try to come up short in IP to protect ERA and WHIP if you are good in Ks, wins, and saves.
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