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Jose isn't the first player to die. I don't know how many MLB players have died while playing but I'd guess it's 10+ with a few of them were all stars. Some players have been paralyzed from car accidents. One guy had a stroke on the field. These aren't like, unheard of.
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Well that's certainly a way to dodge my argument using empty rhetoric.
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Haha DK you are comparing hypothetical scenarios that you cannot even cite a case of so yeah what if a players dick exploded and damaged his vision? Or if aliens abducted Jon Lester? What should our protocol be then?
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Thanks DK mighty gracious of you
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I'm for Andrew picking a player. I'd even be for us subtracting like $5 off that players salary to sweeten the deal. But it is entirely because I think it's almost our mini tribute to Jose, not because Andrew deserves to be compensated.
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It also ought to be mentioned that, as talented as he was, no player is a guarantee. And pitchers are especially a high risk for serious injury or flaming out fast.
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The more I think about it the more ridiculous it becomes in my mind. I'm not denying that it sucks or that Andrew lost tremendous value. But that's not just sports, but life. There are any number of things that can screw a team outside of that teams control.
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You're acting like we're comparing his death to a blister or something. Let's say he had just lost his right hand in the accident. Compensation? That's not "statistically" part of baseball. What if he got cancer in his hand and got it amputated? Compensation? What if he was on the field and a line drive hit his hand creating nerve damage ending his career. Compensation?
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but it's whatever everyone votes. I just think it's random and not clear enough for everyone to determine when this is enforced.
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but at this point we're not talking about his death necessarily. It's not that he died, it's that you lost his stats/value. So again, if we lose a player to a car wreck that puts him out for at least a year, is that value regained? Again, it really sucks (obviously) and it's sad. But this is a conversation about value lost as if it should be recovered if something random happens. Just how random does it have to be?
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Also injuries are a part of baseball. Statistically accidental death really isn't.
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There's a fundamental difference between an injury and a death in that most injuries preserve over 90% of the injured players value. Jose Fernandez died at his best year to date- with signs of improvement and at 24 years old. A dead player has no value anymore.
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Tavares had no surplus value- his death really didn't affect the competitive course of this league. Let's say Corey Kluber was the player that died instead of Jose Fernandez your ability to compete would be severely diminished especially since you sold this year for next and have a surplus value for him. I would vote to preserve some degree of competitive balance in the face of an extremely volatile result to give you a break- by giving you arbitration break equal to half of his value.
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that isn't solving the problem though. Why wasn't anything given for Taveras? Is it just death? My problem is that there are a lot of variables to just randomly do it now. If those thing are sorted, I still think arb is a lot, but I have no issue with grabbing a player.
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Jose Fernandez worth ~$50-53 going in to next season. His surplus is $20-25. This makes loss to my team of roughly $70 worth of value. In the case of removing arbitration assuming I got max arbitration it would be worth less than his value in one year.
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I agree it's far more valuable than picking up a player but recoups less than half of his total value (value + surplus)
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It's not when his surplus value is essentially the amount wiped from arbitration. If an 8 dollar player dies and has a 4 dollar surplus value this says he gets roughly a $4 break on arbitration
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And I don't really see how allowing you to pick up a player that is cut is worthless, as I'm sure there will be several guys who would have value.
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The arbitration is far more valuable than picking up a player. I think the no votes don't necessarily think any compensation is necessary, but if we're going to do something I'm fine with the lesser. It sets a weird precedent...how good does someone have to be if they die? If someone breaks a back in a car accident is there compensation? Yes it sucks, but wiping arb clean is a pretty drastic step when we have no firm grasp on when this option is allowed for everyone.
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Also I nominate Sam for removal from the league due to inactivity unless he shows up and says he actually wants otherwise
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And I have no problem with this setting a precedent- as I said I would vote for the equivalent action on anyone else's team.
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For people who think it is imbalanced- first dibs at a player to me is essentially worthless so we can throw it out (All selections would be based on speculation of whether a player is going to go for more or less in the draft). Anyone who votes yes with the removal of the player compensation?
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Maybe we should nominate whoever doesn't vote by the deadline to be put on the chopping block lol
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Final point then I'll shut up: if we do make a rule about compensation for the future, I'd be happy to let Andrew take part in that now. But I think it needs to be clearly defined and apply across the board. (And for the record, I think the current proposal is too much)
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I think this sets a bad precedence. If we want to make a league wide rule for deaths, fine. But to arbitrarily decide when someone gets compensated or not for bad luck seems like a bad idea. Do we compensate for psychological breakdowns? Accidental physical injuries? I'm not opposed to these sorts of compensations necessarily, but there's got to be a rule for it.
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I do think Kenton's idea of insurance on players is interesting, though. Especially if somehow we could "pay" for it. So in Jose's case, Andrew could have taken out a $3/year insurance policy that, if he lost him for even a season, he is compensated his surplus value, or value of the player, or whatever. (The numbers may not be right, but that's just an example)
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The Marlins will get no such compensation either. It sucks. It's bad luck for them. But that's just how it works.
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Again, it's sad. But no different than a career-ending injury. Would we still be compensating Andrew if Jose had just accidentally gotten his hand chopped off? I doubt it. Agree there is different in season ending and accidental death, but not career ending injuries, which occasionally do happen.
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No
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That's 4 yeses and 3 nos. Reminder: the vote goes until Friday at 11:59 pm PDT. Friday is also the deadline for nominating one of the bottom four team managers to be kicked off the island. If you want one of them gone, or at least want there to be a vote on it, you must nominate by Friday at 11:59.
Paul Dano on
October 6, 2016 12:52 AM
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What I don't get is why anyone would do that though? Everyone has money to spend and players to cut who arent worth what they're getting paid
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I'm also fine if anyone cuts someone from their team who shouldnt be cut that y'all can veto a player.
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I vote yes, but want to make it clear that in the same situation I'd vote yes for anyone else. The numbers add up. Jose Fernandez was worth his value $50-52 plus $15-20 in surplus at the price I had him- when you add that up it equals $65-70 in value lost from my team this year and worth money for years to come as well. Accidental death is so statistically improbable that it's not possible to take in to account- and has nothing to do with baseball.
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Next season I also propose we require people reach a certain number of innings pitched and ABs to remain in the league. Because if you don't field a team and aren't actively checking your lineup enough to get 75% of the innings then you aren't going to ever be competitive.
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Let's also keep in mind that when on the market last year Kershaw went for $70 which is almost certainly a one year contract- so certainly was within reason to think I had Fernandez for 3 more years at the very least- and the possibility for much more.
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Also to note- I had the only other fantasy player to die in this league, Oscar Tavares and received no compensation for him- which I honestly think is fair. I probably was going to keep Tavares for 1 more year at $15 i think and sure he had the potential to be much better, but there was a great chance I would end up cutting him after one more year. The reason I think noone brought it up then was because it wasn't the loss of the 3rd best pitcher in baseball (at barely 24 years old)
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Fernandez blew out his elbow and was still owned for years and was traded to me in what ended up being a great deal for Ike. So yes there's a fundamental difference between a season ending injury (they still retain value) and a player dying. Also injuries are within the realm of baseball and is calculated in to players projections (injury risk) however, accidental death is outside the realm of what is baseball/injury.
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Also we need to figure out if everyone who is currently in the league actually wants to play next year i.e. Sam??? You haven't really paid attention to your team for 2 years now do you want to play still?
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We should all get to choose 5 players that we get this insurance policy on lol
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keeping him for years to come is probably a little over the top...he's at $30, so $32 without arb next year. Assuming he would get some of it, even a bit puts him at $35. Lets say you get two more years out of him at his price. If we lose a guy because of a blown elbow at end of season, is there compensation? I have no issue with the player part,it makes sense. But completely wiping arbitration slate clean is a pretty huge step for anyone. And face it, someone is going to make a stupid cut.
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The player alone definitely isn't enough imo. I personally think no arbitration is more than fair especially when there is no precedence for compensating in any other situation. I would easily vote yes to a no arbitration only compensation. But because I'd rather have this conversation finished I'll vote yes. Just please no one cut a player that has a lot of surplus value. Otherwise his team benefits from this compensation.
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Which compounds over the next few years. A player at excess value (which should only be what gets cut from teams) only provides that value for 1 year before I cut them. I can assure you 100% that I consider the compensation option Christian proposed as substantially less valuable than Jose Fernandez was to my team. The reason this is different than normal circumstances(injury and retirement) is that this is both the most severe and unlikely occurrence possible- and eliminates all player value.
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Thanks everyone for at least considering compensation options. Really sucks ass. FYI Fernandez was worth based on projections ~$50-52 going in to next season and at $30 came at a surplus value of $20- which assuming he got allocated $3 to equals surplus of $15 next year. Losing Fernandez meant not just losing a $50 player but also the $15 I could have spent on other players. Additionally Fernandez alive meant I keep the 3rd best pitcher in baseball for years to come (and surplus value)
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Same as Shrews. I vote no. I can't see any difference (from a fantasy perspective) between this and if he had blown out his elbow, never to pitch again. BUT, it's super sad. And as our little way of honoring Jose, I'd feel great about him picking any player that is dropped (without making a rule). But zero allocations? That's probably worth $30. $30 free dollars is worth more than a $35 Jose Fernandez (or whatever Andrew had him for).
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I'm still overall champ, bud. 2 #1 finishes, 2 #2. Eat my dick.
Paul Dano on
October 5, 2016 2:21 PM
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i vote no. Even though it's a sucky situation. I think avoiding arbitration and allowing him to add a player is too much.
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I clearly now know the game better than you. BACK TO BACK CHAMP BRO
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Jeez. It's two dollars (know the game, champ) and no, the price at which he was cut.
Paul Dano on
October 5, 2016 2:18 PM
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does the player get the 3 dollars added on him for playing in the majors this year? lol
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Price at which he was cut.
Paul Dano on
October 5, 2016 2:16 PM
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