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A Jose Fernandez who blew his arm out in the season was the very same Jose Fernandez who was kept for multiple years through the injury at marginally less money ($24) and who I would have kept for another season. History with the VERY SAME player validates my point. Do you have any data points that suggest dead players are the same? That there is no difference in an injury like that and a player dying?
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Okay you just dodged my very direct answer to your question that you said no one could answer. I did answer that- you don't agree- that's fine. What is evident is that this made enough sense to someone in this league that isn't me that someone who isn't me thought it up and proposed it. And the majority of this people get that. What is also evident from your numbers about Fernandez and his arm blowing out is that you don't understand surplus value or value projections.
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That's not the point at all. This debate/weird argument has nothing to do with the why, which is what we're all saying. You're missing out on value that you wanted compensated, I don't think it needs to be. I told you I was fine with marginal compensation if thats what you wanted with picking up a random player, but the benefit gained was marginal and could have maybe replaced some production, but obviously worth less than dropping arb dollars.
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What is the statistical probability of a player blowing out their elbow? People could reasonably answer that question depending on a few variables. There are statistical and qualitative measures that suggest impending injuries. We can summarize the trends, we can do our best to predict the trend, to cope with the occurrence of the event.
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If I owned a $30 Fernandez and he blew out his elbow in June, and the Marlins came out and said he was out this year and all of next year, his trading value at $30 is essentially zero.
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And based on Kenton's slack post, most agree. While some can see the point, absolutely no one expects/thought of compensation. It sucks, it does. But to create a one time rule is weird
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Here Shrews in very simple terms- the difference- an injured player still retains value. Said player still presumably plays baseball. Injuries are part of the reason pitchers are risky investments for money and why you see players scarcely paid over $50 as a starting pitcher. Injured pitchers are kept all the time- dead players are not. Why is that? Because dead players offer no potential value in the future, no current value, cannot be traded or played or benched until healthy.
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The question no one can answer is how death is different to you than if he blew out on an elbow/or as DK put it, blew up his dick (paraphrasing). You still lose out on production/value/surplus/whatever else.
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The argument is that a player died, so you lost out on his current value/production along with his future value/production. This isn't difficult. what our point is...so what? It happens and is the same issue if a guy blew out an elbow on June 1 and lost all of 2016/2017. Lost out on current value/production and future value/production. It's not even really an argument, it's that we don't understand why now just because he died. I can almost guarantee you there are zero other leagues doing this.
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I propose Mike Trout should be moved from Christian's team to Ike's with a $15 salary for next year. There's a completely arbitrary reason for this move known only to me. Please vote before noon tomorrow because it completely makes sense to change the rules any time half of us agree to do so.
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No- and that's not what happened. Again I can show you the numbers but as most people in this league recognize the "entire" arbitration process is below the amount of lost production (again easily demonstrated)- and again I also bring up that this wasn't brought forward or thought up by me as Christian already mentioned previously. If you still don't realize the difference in this situation then you haven't listened much to anyone. Don't have to agree but it's not nonsensical or silly
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I don't think anyone would call it distressing, just kind of ridiculous that to have entire season of arbitration wiped clean because of lost player production. Everyone has lost player production. If he had blown is elbow out in the middle of the season and lost 1.5 seasons from it, would you have wanted compensation for it?
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This is silly.
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Wait, Sam, you're done?
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And still I do not feel better off for having the compensation- I'd rather be in your boat and not have my players die
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And for the record as I mentioned before- and aligned with your initial concern and those voiced here I'm not taking the player any way- so even if it passes I'm just taking the arbitration break because it's clear the range of opinions on this is pretty substantial.
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@Shrews- While I get your opinion, I'm not sure of why it's distressing to you in any way. I was better off with an alive Fernandez and worst case scenario I get some compensation for it that does not equal or exceed Fernandez' value.
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Also, just a note: voting doesn't have to happen on here. If people prefer that their votes be kept private, they can text me or message me privately. If no one changes their vote before midnight, the motion will carry, 6-5 with my vote not required. Also, all relegation nominations must be made by midnight. Those can also be private, if you wish.
Paul Dano on
October 7, 2016 6:31 PM
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Nah. I'll be out next year. No need to vote.
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I think there are legitimate reasons to think either way no matter what the main base of the argument is
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sigh, alrighty then. this vote is over. congrats andrew
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I assume I am- it's a league vote. My competitive future is of concern for you and everyone else as it is for me- but to make it clear I would definitively vote for the same for anyone else's team
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the more we talk about it the more I tend to agree...just seems like a really random decision to make. but that appears to be a losing thought
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Bax, Me, kenton, Ike, Sawyer, Nick
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Yeah so until 12 AM it's still open it looks like- Ben just made a great point that to want to compensate is complete garbage maybe that will swing the vote.
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are you able to vote on this??? So basically one of Baxley,Nick, or Ryan are the swing votes now unless Ike comes back
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so now we root for someone else to swing our way. hooray!
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dammit ike
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It was 6 now its 6-5 other way
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That's assuming Andrew isn't voting on this?
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Unless I'm wrong, that's Jodie, Ben, DK, Me, Sam, and Ike at 6 no's which should be the majority?
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I thought there were already 6 votes for no?
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This is a league for fun. No one makes any money and in order for us to maintain fun and fair competition we should compensate. And originally I had the vote as no and I am changing it.
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I am not opposed to compensation, but the player alone isn't enough and creates a problem with future compensation. It isn't scalable. If for example Kole Calhoun died, who is valuable to my team, I should receive less compensation in my opinion than andrew should receive for jose fernandez. I think arbitration money is a good way to proportionally compensate owners based on their players value.
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I understand the hesitancy of certain people to offer compensation because its never been done before. But if anything has ever deserved compensation before it's this. Give me an actual example of another time that anything came close to this situation as completely non-baseball related random suckiness.
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Whether or not it *should require unanimous consent, it does not. Keep on truckin'.
Paul Dano on
October 7, 2016 5:50 PM
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This death compensation thing is complete junk. I've stopped reading all the posts, but DK was the only one making sense before you lost me. Should require unanimous consent.
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Yes, I’m for the compensation. Optimally I feel like the player choice alone (without the arbitration deal) is best, but for the sake of getting my vote in I am saying “yes”. I see where people are coming from with the slippery slope arguments. But injuries/retirement are a normal part of baseball, whereas the accidental death of a 24 year-old, top-3 pitcher is not. And like some of you said if there is ever a similar situation again then it can be brought to a vote as well.
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Also sam want to respond to the nomination for your removal to league due to inactivity? Are you wanting to be in league or is schedule prob too busy to keep up next year?
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I vote no
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That is actually a bit worse then. If we're going to allow this big of step, I think it makes sense to make it a thing. Otherwise we get into this same debate again.
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I vote we give him pass on arbitration but no player. And future situations if they happen (which they probably wont) we will deal with in similar matter
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In any official capacity it doesn't. Any future action would require a vote just like this one.
Paul Dano on
October 7, 2016 1:24 PM
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I would disagree this doesn't impact future decisions or issues
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As a side note this is a really interesting discussion.
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It doesn't matter what happens in the future at all. We aren't making a rule. We can discuss or debate similar situations in the future in the very rare circumstances that they happen. What we can do now is choose to correct a little bit of this non-competitive misfortune that devalues good fantasy decision making.
Paul Dano on
October 7, 2016 12:36 PM
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This isn't about setting a precedent in my view. In my view, this is about saying, "that sucks" for Andrew and thinking that it would be fair to compensate him for it in some way that doesn't affect any of our teams and tries to preserve the competitive environment that existed prior to the death of probably the second best pitcher in baseball.
Paul Dano on
October 7, 2016 12:30 PM
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I have thought about it and I have decided my answer is NO.
Booger Weeds on
October 7, 2016 9:41 AM
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Harrumph!!!
Booger Weeds on
October 7, 2016 9:40 AM
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Finally, my point is that whether a player dies or his dick explodes or he gets eaten by Bigfoot, arbitrary compensation is a bad idea. And I'll agree this is an extreme case that sucks for you, but every fantasy owner has to deal with just pure dumb bad luck from time to time. It's part of this game.
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