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I understand cap money, thanks. It was the EXCESS cap money that made no sense, to me or others it seems. Once again, the second someone challenges anything related to Spa it becomes heated and personal from him.
I didn't veto the trade. I pointed out the start of the same old pattern.
I have spent uncounted games at Fenway, I am well aware of its dimensions. Thanks.
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Amen to that. And even within just fantasy baseball, it’s a $20, no-prize league. It costs more than $20 to go to Starbucks these days. But I’ll never discourage anyone from using their veto button. If a trade is really so bad it throws off the competition, it should be vetoed. I can’t see Goldy-Abrams having that kind of impact, and since only 1 veto was used apparently I’m not alone.
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Gotcha. As our commissioner pointed out "this is fantasy baseball not life or death."
CROCO🐊GATORS on
April 25, 2022 11:38 PM
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AG - I appreciate your point. But I just don’t care all that much about winning these leagues. I used to care more, and for several years I won a ton of titles in several different leagues. I mostly like to roster players I find exciting these days. Maybe I can out together a fantastic roster this way. Maybe not. But I’d like to have fun doing it my way.
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And since this is my 5th annual discussion of Spa trading good players and cap dollars to Winnetka early in the year, I'll add that even though its effect is to make the league less competitive, both owners are trying to improve their team and should be allowed to do so. I do question the premise--that you trade stars to contenders for future stars so that in the future you will be the contender. If that were a valid premise, seems like Spa, not Winnetka, would be the contender by now.
CROCO🐊GATORS on
April 25, 2022 11:17 PM
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If a deal comes along that I like, I’m under no obligation to pursue other options. Some of you might think I made a bad trade, but it’s my team. If it doesn’t work out for me, c’est la vie. It’s a $20, no-prize league. I can handle losing a trade sometimes.
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Tristan Casas - the next Lou Gehrig! Casas will probably make Joey Votto look like Joey Cora! Yep - Casas is an untradable superstar in the making. He will probably hit 600 HRs, with Fenway being so favorable to LH power hitters. 🤣
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I traded a player for cap space in another league this year and another owner had an irate response to such "cheating." I pointed him to Rule VI. c. "Salary cap dollars can be traded between teams" and he only became more irate, insisting the i. e. clause which Niv put after the statement was the only possible way cap dollars could be traded and anything else was circumventing the rules. You or I may not like this feature of Ottoneu, but it's how the game works.
CROCO🐊GATORS on
April 25, 2022 11:06 PM
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Fenway’s “short RF” 😂. Second worst RF for HRs in MLB. 380 feet to right-center. 420 feet to deep right-center. Maybe AP saw the distance at the Pesky Pole but never bothered to watch a game at Fenway. What a clown.
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AP, were you unaware of being able to trade cap room when you signed up for Ottoneu? They have been in the rules for at least nine years.
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JDM will also likely be DH only after this year (no reason for Boston to play him in the field), Casas will be taking over 1B from Dalbec by year end. A slow, power hitting lefty with a short right field in his home stadium. Should be fun to watch.
Farm to Table on
April 25, 2022 10:34 PM
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And no I wasn't just going to jump into a trade for JDM to help you make a point. I don't agree with the extra cap money approach, so I would need to be a hypocrite to accept that trade. My point was calling you out for not trying to get a better deal when there were plenty of other options that you didn't even attempt to pursue.
Farm to Table on
April 25, 2022 10:26 PM
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"Since we don't get points on how a player fields and that SBs are not scored very high, Witts skill set isn't parlayed into fangraphs scoring" - Winnetka Bears on September 5, 2020 12:57 AM. Abrams has none of the power Witt has, so I guess he is basically an empty roster spot for you now.
Casas and Baz are are significantly higher ceilings AND are not MI like you said you needed. I offered Meyers in return and lowered the loan - you rejected it. Your words and actions don't ali
Farm to Table on
April 25, 2022 10:22 PM
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Tristan Casas, a one dimensional, 1B-only bat with no speed at all - possibly already the slowest runner in baseball at age 22. But you suffer from a severe case of the Endowment Effect, so you won’t trade him for JDM - who is essentially an identical hitter to Goldy and has more positional flexibility in a 5 OF format. Even with the exact same $35 loan that Winnetka got. You turned down 2 trades from me that are essentially the same deal Winnetka got.
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I’ll not drop it AP. I don’t take orders from you. I know your prospects like Casas and Baz are so incredibly great they can’t possibly be traded, while Abrams is a total bust. But I’ll go ahead and dare to disagree with you. God forbid we disagree!
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I saw the trade comments said "I need to do something at MI" and guess what, I have 7 options at MI from All-Star to Prospects. I didn't see any offers until I commented, so drop the "nobody offers me anything" nonsense. Anybody offered a blue chip proven bat (Goldy) plus cap space for a slap hitting MI should take that offer. Abrams has nearly zero power, his value is all speed and defense which scores nothing in ottoneu. No need to add cap money in that deal.
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I’m only interested in prospects with a good chance at a full season (or nearly full) in the majors in 2023. I’m not looking for players in A ball, even very good ones. It is just too far in the future to worry about them, and if a prospect like Mayer has a great year at high A, he will be expensive bu the time he gets to MLB.
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Maybe (probably?) I’m wrong and in June it will all be a moot point when 3 or 4 teams start scrambling for talent and $700 rosters.
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I also recognize that Spa and I made a series of trades over in the other league, but I think our intentions were pretty clearly stated. I was eager to cash in on some of my MiLB talent and Spa was looking to acquire. I will admit I was a bit frustrated to see the excess cap dollars being exchanged so early in the season when a star bat was also involved. Seems to devalue the auction. Am I the only one who feels this way? Nobody else is addressing the specifics and how we can avoid this again.
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I don’t want to veto or reverse the trade. I’d like to talk about how the league thinks cap dollars should be valued. To me that is where the disconnect lies. I wasn’t even aware that Goldschmidt was available or I’d have certainly tried to get in on it. Can’t say I have a better MiLB player to offer than Abrams but I wouldn’t have been looking for the cap space in return either. It’s not apparent that Spa was bidding against anyone except himself, and I can see why that looks sketchy to some.
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I’ll gladly reverse the trade if anybody would tell me they would offer a better return.
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I’m also in 2 leagues with Solid Gold, I’m in 2 leagues with Frisky Whales, and I’m in 2 leagues with Almost Giants. Is it somehow a problem?
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I don't mind the public debate, in fact I encourage it. Veto the trade and offer Spa something significantly better. I don't need a 1B anyways.
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What a weird thing to keep bitching about. Yes - Winnetka is in 4 of my 5 leagues. Get over it. Or don’t. I don’t care if that is a problem for you for some weird reason. I joined 2 of those leagues after Winnetka mentioned there were openings. Every damn time there is a vacancy in a league I’m in, I mention it to people I have been in leagues with. Sometimes they join. Several of you are i. Other leagues with me. Why the hell is this such a problem?
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You and Spa are in 4 leagues together and we have this exact same debate every single season. This early in the season and years of the same playbook. I didn't click veto.
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Grizzly you should go back and check some of the trades we did in 2015.
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A lot of guys refuse to trade their cherished, superstar prospects, and if they respond to my trade offers at all they tell me “prospect X is worth WAY more than that,” or “prospect X is not available.” Winnetka actually is willing to trade his prospects. Some guys refuse to trade their prospects, but reserve the right to complain when I make a trade for prospects with their rivals. You can’t have it both ways - trade your prospects, or watch rivals improve their teams when they trade theirs.
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We are on year 5 of highly questionable trades and you guys are in multiple leagues together and Spa has 5 11th or 12th place finishes in this league. We do this every year. It isn't fun. This is such a good league and I love to trade. It's not even that lopsided a trade and we shouldn't veto. But be sensitive to the optics of this being the exact same dance every April.
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This is my ninth year with four teams, it is part of the game. In my first season in Ottoneu I made the same type of trades like this. If you want to win championships, you have to bite the bullet and rebuild. I can attest that Spa knows what he is doing, how many championships have you won Spa?
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It was sure worth it to me. What was I going to do with that extra cap space anyway? For me, adding Abrams for 2023 is worth all that cap space for 2022 - I don’t need it this year. As for how it affects the league… I think it encourages contenders to offer their prospects for similar deals.
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I don’t see how Abrams for Goldschmidt needs to have any more $ other than a loan to balance it out. I wouldn’t even bat an eyelash at that deal and think it’s perfectly reasonable for both sides. I get that cap space is an asset, but I don’t think it’s being properly valued here, and I don’t think the effect it has on the rest of the league is being considered.
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I would expect a loan to cover the difference. Abrams was just traded for $45 worth of value (assuming Goldschmidt still holds most of his salary due to only being mid April) because I don’t think there is a reasonable valuation of cap dollars.
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I love CJ Abrams, and have him on 4 of my 5 teams. His slow start doesn’t bother me a bit. Abrams is going to be very, very good. I’d trade Goldschmidt for him 10 times out of 10.
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… and there is no way to trade expensive players for cheap prospects without loans. It’s part if the game. If you cling to your prospects, you will always be frustrated when your rivals who are willing to trade prospects add star players.
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Trading cap space is one of the ways bad teams (like mine) can stay active and interested in the game. And it rewards contending teams who are smart enough to roster good prospects and who are willing to trade them. It is hypocritical to complain about other teams trading prospects for stars if you are unwilling to trade your own prospects. If prospects are so super-valuable, then why is there a problem with me trading a 34 year old 1B only guy for a prospect?
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I did not veto this trade because I respect people’s right to have their own values. Obviously I disagree on the value that was exchanged but that’s not what my particular gripe is about. I think this trade sets a bad precedent about how cap dollars might be valued, and that’s a discussion I want to have because it affects people who aren’t even involved in the actual trade.
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for as long as I can remember and correct me if i’m wrong, but the guidelines were pretty much anything goes unless it was obvious that there was blatant collusion.
If you all want to veto this trade and set new guidelines on voting, I have no problem with that. SG, I would recommend that new voting rules are relatively specific and well thought out and are agreed upon a league wide vote of at least eight owners, if you decide to go down that route.
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Trade voting has historically not been based on a fair market determination. This is simply because there will always be varying opinions on talent and future valuations. Niv has given guidance in the past on this point even though there is no written rule. There is some exceptions, for me, and that is when you have an experienced owner preying on an owner new to Ottoneu. Each league usually has established its own guidelines in voting, including this one. Graham has been our commish
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It's not only a matter of the fair value of a given player. We should outline that some owners have turned their nose up at trades involving two given teams.
Fantasy Vibes on
April 25, 2022 10:12 AM
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I don’t think any of these trades involving the players being discussed warrant providing such substantial cap relief. It significantly undermines the rest of the league who are attempting to navigate their cap. Maybe a couple dollars here and there to balance the sides could be justified. I completely respect an owner’s right to value his players, but as a general practice a star bat like Goldschmidt PLUS $13 in cap space for a player like Abrams is a valuation I’d like to see revisited.
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JDM plus $35 for Triston Casas? I sent the offer. Same offer stands for Shane Baz. JDM and Goldschmidt are so similar in hard hit rate, exit velo, barrel rate, etc. Baseball Savant has JDM as the 4th most similar hitter to Goldschmidt in all MLB. They are the same age. And JDM has OF eligibility. How can you not view the 2 of them as essentially identical in terms of trade value?
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I have Witt and Abrams at SS. I have no use for Adames. I countered with Casas. JDM plus $35 for Casas or for Baz…. Are they both seriously THAT much better than Abrams? I wouldn’t give up Abrams for Casas.
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Trust me, I am not the "that guy" in this league. I countered your offer with an apples-apples player to your other trade and you rejected it within seconds (Adames>Abrams in this scoring system). That is all I needed to know.
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I think Abrams for Goldschmidt is fair value if you are selling, and I respect the player valuation there. I wish I had known you were selling even though I don’t think I could have necessarily offered better. I do think there is a substantial disconnect on the finances.
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I just offered JDM plus $35 for Shane Baz. If Goldschmidt-Abrams is so far out of line, then presumably JDM-Baz is lopsided in AP’s favour. I’d be interested to see why JDM plus $35 for Baz is so far from Goldschmidt plus $35 for Abrams that one deal needs to be vetoed while the other gets rejected. I assume my offer to AP will be accepted.
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Would anyone else have offered more for Goldschmidt than CJ Abrams? I did not hear from anyone even asking about Goldschmidt, let alone offering a better return.
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The Spa/Winnetka trade has gotten some attention on the board and to me by message so just reminding everyone the trade review period is 24 hours. There is no criteria in the rules for vetoing a deal. It's up to each individual owner. Everyone in this league pays attention and knows how to communicate with each other so it will get discussion and a fair review. Whatever the owner result is, remember this is fantasy baseball not life or death.
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Is any team in the league entitled to grow a farm system, or just Winnetka?
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Oh that’s right. I forgot Alleged Perps is “that guy” in this league. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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And so it begins
Farm to Table on
April 24, 2022 12:30 PM
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