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I will leave this league. I'll put all my players on the bench until the end of the season. I was so angry that my words were so violent. I apologize to everyone for that.
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LMFAO, Yaong calls Pope immature then proceeds to call Pope stupid and an idiot. Who is the immature one really?
Team MLB on
August 22, 2019 10:26 PM
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Note that you aren't seeing lots of messages from Pope or myself complaining about the veto. We're accepting the result and moving on.
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Zips- you are correct in you're statement about the increase in salary. Look at my team. Besides betts and jram, who are both already 42+ dollars, who wasnt going to put dollars on belli? I mean if all teams add a buck his salary goes to 50+. My team is not ready to compete. Nor will it next year. Otto- I get where you are coming from but the whole argument that he hasn't been traded in other leagues isnt a good basis for why I shouldn't have dealt him. Salaries are not same across the board.
Taken on
August 21, 2019 9:34 PM
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and explained and supported my views and not resorted to name calling. I don't condone name calling but if the debate and discussion gets anyone upset, that's unfortunate, and I'm sorry they feel that way, but I've been upfront, honest, clear, professional...and admittedly overly wordy, in my posts.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 7:31 PM
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...in order to make a decision to about whether to veto or approve the trade. I'd also respectfully disagree that Bellinger at $38 (or $40 with the $2 increase) is a borderline keeper. For his youth, production and potential, it's at least reasonable. I won't speculate about what JBP thought at the time or now. I've stuck to the facts and gone by what he specifically said in his message. Finally, I don't think the last comment was intended for me, but I've been respectful even where critical
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 7:27 PM
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Zips, again, thank you for your thoughtful comments. I am going to respectfully agree to disagree. Whether we can act to increase Bellinger's salary or not has no bearing on whether the trade is appropriate now. None. Whether anyone asked about Bellinger's availability or whether he was on the trade block also has no bearing on whether the trade is appropriate. What matters are the players and money involved. When you go to look at the trade, that's the info you are given...
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 7:21 PM
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we can veto the trades and anyone is free to lobby other owners to veto the deal so it doesnt go through, causing them to rework the trade.
now we have name calling and hard feelings. i thought this might be a good league to stay in. now i am rethinking my options.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 7:17 PM
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otto- you are forgetting that we can up bellys salary to the point where it may handicap him to keep belly. the fact of the matter is that none of us asked about bellys availability, whether he was on the block or not. hes $38. borderline keeper, no matter his stats. maybe that fed into popes thoughts. maybe he got buyers remorse after all of this discourse.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 7:14 PM
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that in and of itself calls into question the validity of the trade. You express concerns about teams being able to do what they want as if its been a problem in this league when this is really the first one of these we've had in almost 2 seasons. We all know you're keeping Bellinger at his price if this goes through or if you trade him, you're going to demand A LOT MORE than what you gave up. I understand where you're coming from but it is driving this on-going discussion for better or worse.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:32 PM
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...you got a 24 year old superstar player at a bargain price and now you feel like that trade is in jeopardy. The problem is saying things like that you don't really think any trade should be vetoed or that in your other leagues they trade a $35+ guy for 2 less than $10 guys and comparing this trade to what happened to you in the Kluber trade are not good arguments for why the trade should be allowed. You have the team on the other end of this deal acknowledging he should have gotten more....
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:27 PM
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BM, no, you're wrong. If I trade you Trout for Wade Miley because I think Miley is going to become the next Kershaw and I'm "getting more value" from that in this offensive era and I "like" my side of the trade, that doesn't make the trade "fair", "right" or one that should go through and not be vetoed. KC was right in his earlier comment that you are making things worse for yourselves. Your comments come off as targeted to try to get this deal pushed thr
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:24 PM
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one sided they are". A league is only as good as its weaker teams. The more teams that are abandoned, the worse the league is. The more teams that make bad trades or get talked into giving away their best players without getting enough in return, the worse the league is. The more owners that don't pay attention to what is going on in the league, the worse the league is. If the same 2 teams win every year, the league will be worse b/c its not competitive. I don't want that to happen here.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:17 PM
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...over the last almost 2 years of this league, especially from me because I hate getting into these types of debates, should say something. BM's expressing concerns about people being able to run their teams how they see fit as if this type of debate and vetoing of trades has been common. It hasn't. I'm not upset but I am concerned about the balance of the league when I hear things like "I know I should have gotten more" & "I don't think any trades should be vetoed reg
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:11 PM
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The definition of a trade is both sides think they are getting more value than they are giving up. Value can be defined differently, which leads both parties to want to make a trade. I probably wouldn't do most deals if I was the other person. But, all that matters is both sides like their side of the deal. Finally, thanks for staying classy Yaong.
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...other than for curiosity's sake to see who is going to win the arms race between Shoopy and BM. It's the deal itself and my best proof of that is you haven't seen me complaining about other deals this year or last. The last time YS brought up concerns about Shoopy and BM's trades, I supported both of their rights to make their trades and that they had both done the best jobs forming their teams. The fact that this trade is the one trade -- the one trade -- that has sparked this much debate
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:04 PM
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Zips, your last question is a good one and my answer is simple...Absolutely! It might even bug me more if I was 5-15. I sent out a msg I think after the time where Shoopy got Scherzer and BM made a couple of deals too and said this season was basically an arms race between Shoopy and BM and that I was open for business. So, I already knew then that I was, at best, playing for 3rd. So, for purposes of this year and the playoffs, BM have Bellinger, Lindor or anyone else doesn't matter to me....
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 6:00 PM
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Zips, I really hadn't made any assumption about who proposed the deal, though I suppose that's implied by how I raised the inclusion about France so your point is a fair one. As I said at the beginning, I view that deal as borderline and the France inclusion was my one issue with it and reasonable minds can disagree.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 5:42 PM
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otto - would you be this upset if your team record was 5-15 rather than 15-5?
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 4:36 PM
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you guys are assuming that monkeys made the offer. I WAS THE ONE WHO PROPOSED THE DEAL. as i said, i am not a fantasy rookie. we went back and forth for 2 weeks and came up with this deal. sure, france is an if-come, but he sure looked good in the minors. his sample size now does NOT mean he will be a bust.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 4:28 PM
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I think you'd better change your nickname to hyena.
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But the problem is you never can't answer this question. Monkeys, Change your position and think about it. Would you sell Bellinger at that price? You're never going to do that, aren't you? Please answer this question.
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First and foremost, I don't appreciate the inflammatory language. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. I'm concerned about a standard where a trade should be vetoed if someone could or should have gotten more. I don't think the veto is a vote on the balance of a trade. Finally, I'm very concerned about the opinions that people can't manage their own team. Pope, Zips and I have all said that we're doing what is best for our teams and we're happy with the deals.
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This isn't even the Yahoo League.
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I never imagined that this nonsense would happen in the Fangraph fantasy league.
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...is a piece of this trade. That just sounds like he was sold as tearing up the minors, don't pay attention to his failure to hit (in a short sample size) in the majors or lack of a top prospect pedigree but "you never know", it could work out. It just strikes me as a "hope and a prayer" add-on and "hope" is not a strategy. But, I acknowledge, reasonable minds can disagree.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:57 PM
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This league is just Monkeys and his followers. And a few elites.
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On the Lindor deal, while I agree it is worthwhile to put a player on the trade block to see what you might be able to get back. That said, putting the player on the trading block doesn't make it okay to make a bad deal. I don't think you're saying that but just to be clear. My only issue with that deal is the Ty France inclusion given the other options on BM's roster. Up until a couple of days ago, you could have had him as a FA and didn't take any action to get him. Then, all of a sudden, he..
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:54 PM
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...it has not doubled and some of that increase is due to the further offensive increase this year generally. I don't know if he will be traded more after this year. That's pure speculation. I suppose the answer probably is "yes" since he hasn't been traded at all since in the last 8 months in any H2H league, but the actual record and data (i.e. the history of the last 8 months) indicates otherwise or at least he will be traded less than expected for all the reasons previously stated
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:50 PM
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The willingness to trade a good to great player would also be affected by the player's salary, age, injury, etc. The fact that Bellinger has not been traded in ANY H2H league since mid-December, which was in this league, tells us that the teams that own Bellinger do not want to give him up, likely because his salaries are good to reasonable for his performance, he is only 24, has some position flexibility, etc. His performance also wasn't HALF of what it was last year. It's definitely up, but
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:45 PM
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As to my comment about Bellinger not being traded, let me try to be more clear. A player is more likely to be traded where there is high demand. I think we can all agree that there is and has been a good market for Bellinger. A player is less likely to be traded when supply is low (i.e. In this case, that would be where the teams with Bellinger do not want to give him up). Players with good to great performance are less likely to be traded because their teams prefer to keep them.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:42 PM
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Zips, appreciate your thoughtful comments, though I disagree. JBP by his own statement didn't get "the best deal". He specifically stated "I understand I should have received more...." In and of itself, unless you're taking BM's approach that almost no trade should be vetoed regardless of how lopsided it is, then that statement by itself should cause this trade to be canceled.
Otto Who? on
August 21, 2019 2:38 PM
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one last thing - i had lindor on the block for WEEKS. only monkeys reached out. EVERYONE else had the chance to get him.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 21, 2019 2:31 PM
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but, each person runs their team THEIR way. if pope thought he got the best deal, then he did.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:25 PM
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otto - last year, bellys stats were HALF of what they are now. to say he has more value cuz he hasnt been traded as much is difficult to follow. i bet he is traded even MORE this offseason because more people believe he can repeat 2019 more so than 2018 and they think he will carry them. the only part i can agree on is that belly should have been put on the block to better judge his value to see if teams see him as a 2019 player and less of the 2018 player
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:23 PM
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BM I think your effort to defend the trade by these comparisons is building the frustration--as much frustration at your defense of the trade as the trade itself. I agree with Otto's comments about the Kluber comparison, and Arenado Blackmon and Scherzer are not comparable because of the age difference. None are 24 (Blacmon & Scherzer have entered geezerhood) and none are having the year Bellinger has had. Just admit you made a super deal and we move on.
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...of their roster shows it.
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:16 PM
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when evaluating the trades, look at monkeys team. could he protect belly and lindor? sure, but the price is high. that means that degrom, boegarts, pham, carrasco and greinke should be available. he cant keep them ALL.qould anyone trade belly for one, two or three of those guys? would belly for boegarts and france be a good trade? swaying the balance of the league with one trade isnt gonna happen. the fact is that shoopy and monkeys put more time in this than anyone else and the construction..
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:15 PM
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attention. To the point of why this trade SHOULD be vetoed, you yourself say "I understand I should have received more...." By your own admission, you didn't get fair value if you believe you should have gotten more. Just to put an exclamation point on the difference...since the trade you raised about Arenado, he's been trade 5 times since last December in H2H. Bellinger hasn't been traded once in that same time. That tells you there is a difference in how Bellinger and Arenado are
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:10 PM
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...my team is a classic example. havent had much time to devle deep, so im suffering.
these trades are interesting. i also vetoed the bellinger trade, but after thinking, i shouldnt have. my trade with him is different. sure, i gave up frankie, but i also gave up a middle of the rotation guy for an ss with comparable stats, a good young player in lowe and a chance prospect in france. was france am fa? sure, but so was soto, et al. doesnt matter when they were signed....
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:09 PM
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And, another player to sweeten the pot. Sure. How did that work out? Wouldn't it had been better for the rebuilding team to keep Arenado? Demand more proven talent in return for a cornerstone superstar player? The truth is this trade should have been vetoed too, but you can't judge every trade going forward by finding a worse trade that went through before and use that as your baseline. It also matters that this trade was in the off-season when not everyone is paying the same level of...
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:04 PM
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been reading these as they come in and the last couple are funny. leave the league over a trade? call someone an idiot over fantasy baseball? wow. dont know how old some of you are, but ive been playing fantasy baseball for 40 years, since i was 14. mail in leagues. even ran a fantasy business back in the day, so ive seen just about everything. i think we covered this earlier. if you want to have the success of the monkeys and shoopy, you put in the time....
Swamp Donkeys on
August 20, 2019 11:04 PM
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JBP,you ask a good question and I will give you a respectful answer. You're right to the extent on its face it looks similar. You could argue that Arenado is 3 years older and $8 more expensive, which lower his overall value, but the real answer is...I'll guarantee this was sold as trading a star player to help a rebuilding team, saving on cost, getting a top OF prospect in return that had already tasted MLB and everyone expected to emerge this coming season. And, throw in an arm with upside.
Otto Who? on
August 20, 2019 11:02 PM
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Anyone can leave the league and anyone can vote to veto. These are owners’ rights. I honestly don’t see how this deal is so different from the deals for Blackman, Arenado, or Scherzer. As a buyer, I don’t remember a bidding process for those guys, the returns were not that different, and they’re all pretty similar in star power as Belli. So, it starts to feel like the frustration is something more than just disagreement with this deal.
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Pope, you idiot, stop being stupid.
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Anyway, I'll leave the league when the Bellinger trade is approved. It's not a fantasy league, it's a Neverland for Monkeys.
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Ok chief
Taken on
August 20, 2019 10:18 PM
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At least I put Arenado on the block. But it didn't sell, so it ended up being a bargain. Much better than your stupid trade.
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You might be right. But it is a Dynasty league and I'm looking 2 years away, again. I looked at past trades and you gave up arenado for r lopez, k tucker, and trivino...........how is this worse?
Taken on
August 20, 2019 10:07 PM
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Hey Pope, you have to think about this. That your immature move could break the balance of the entire league. And if you were thinking of selling Bellinger, why didn't you put it on the block? If you did, you could have paid a lot more. What's the point of handing Bellinger over at such a bargain? I just don't understand.
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